Tag Archives: Supernatural cause

A Recent Debate with an Atheist

 

Me:

Here is a link below:

Here I give reference to my article ‘ Is “Fine Tuning” Actually Required For Proving The Existence Of God?’

One can go through this link and decide for oneself whether there is any God or not.

Atheist:

” During these one billion years of earth’s time it will be in a spaceless and timeless condition, because the distance between the star and the earth has become zero for it and time has also stopped.”That is complete nonsense. At any point during those one billion years, it will be at a certain point in space between that star and Earth. There is no point at which the distance between the star and earth becomes zero. And as time, distance and speed are related (speed = distance/time), that photon of light is still very much in the realm of space-time by travelling from the star to Earth. Your first premise is completely incorrect and unfortunately it then completely undermines your entire subsequent argument.”Then it will cease to be by being absorbed by something or someone on earth.”Photons are energy packets, they energy is transferred to something else. It does not ‘cease to be’ – such a thing would be a violation of the First Law of Thermodynamics.”So light originating within space and time goes beyond space and time, because space and time become non-existent for it.”Again, that is completely false as I explained above.”And we cannot claim that this is without any cause. “We actually can. There are a number of physical phenomenon that happen (especially at the quantum level) without cause, such as radioactive decay. How have you demonstrated that this (even if it were true) doesn’t fall into this category.”But whatever may be the cause of it, this cause cannot lie within space and time; it is impossible.”Why not?”A cause that lies within space and time is a natural cause, but a cause that lies beyond space and time is not a natural cause; it is a supernatural cause.”Why? Sorry, but that article of yours is complete word salad. You have made any number of baseless assumptions to try and explain a premise that is demonstrably false to begin with.

Me:

From your reply it appears that you know nothing about the special theory of relativity and its two features of length contraction and time dilation. So please read about these subjects in Wikipedia and then make a fresh comment.

Atheist:

Contraction and dilation are not ‘removal from’. There is no point at which the photon is outside the realm of space and time. I suggest you go and actually study quantum physics, ideally at at least A Level, preferable BSc, rather than read lay summaries from Wikipedia and then make a fresh comment.

Me:

Distance from the star to the earth is one billion light-years if seen from earth’s reference frame. So there is a space gap of one billion light-years between the earth and the star. Do you mean to say this space-gap remains the same for light also, if contraction does not mean ‘removal from’? Please make this point clear first. Then I can proceed further.

Atheist:

Yes, if the distance between the star and the earth is 1 billion light years, then the distance the light photon has to travel is… 1 billion light years!

Me:

“Yes, if the distance between the star and the earth is 1 billion light years, then the distance the light photon has to travel is… 1 billion light years!”

So you are saying that the distance between the earth and the star remains the same for us as well as for the light photon, because as per you light photon will have to travel a distance of one billion light years, and not zero distance as per the equation of special theory of relativity. If what you are saying is accepted as correct, then that will only mean that space and time are absolute, not relative. But this directly goes against the findings of one well-established theory of science. So do you want to challenge the special theory of relativity?

Atheist:

No… I think you are just misunderstanding the theory of relativity. You are aware that the very term ‘light year’ is defined as the distance travelled by a photon of light in a year, right? So if the star is 1 billion light years away, then the photon of light has to travel… wait for it… 1 billion light years! By definition! Perhaps you are thinking of the how the relative mass of an object gets heavier as it approaches the speed of light – with the resulting time dilation effects you previously mentioned. However, light photons have no mass and so aren’t affected by this rule. In fact the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant – one of the most fundamental constants in all of physics! So the light photon has to travel 1 billion light years, by definition, at the speed of light, by definition. Meaning by the simple equation speed=distance/over time, at any given point in space, it will have been travelling for a certain amount of time, or at any time, it will be at a given point in space. At no point will it be in a timeless, spaceless conditions – it remains fully within the bounds of space and time. You are just flat out wrong here.

Me:

Again I am asking you the same question. From our reference frame the distance between the star and the earth is one billion light years. From light’s own reference frame what is the distance between the star and the earth?

Atheist:

Surprisingly enough… 1 billion light years!

Me:

Thank you a lot for this answer. This answer of yours clearly shows that for you space and time are absolute. So I have nothing more to say here. I am quitting.

Atheist:

No, you are just some purveyor of woo who likes big scientific words in their arguments without understanding what they mean. First up, relativity applies to moving objects. For instance, if I am travelling in a car at 50 mph and a car overtakes me at 70 mph, from my frame of reference, the car is doing 20 mph. However, seen from a static observer, the car is still doing 70 mph. That’s relativity in a nutshell. Now, if I am on top of a mountain A and you are on top of another mountain B and the distance between them is 10 miles, it doesn’t matter whether it is from mine or your perspective, the distance between the two peaks is 10 miles. So the distance between the earth and star is 10 billion light years – that IS absolute! How long it will SEEM, depends on the size, mass and speed of the object travelling between them. Except photons HAVE no mass or size when travelling through a vacuum, because their wave-particle nature is entirely wavelike and will not change until they meet an object. Which is why the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant – 2.998 x 10^8 metres per second squared. So we have a total distance of 10 billion light years which is the equivalent of 9.46 x 10^25 metres. By the simple equation speed=distance/time, rearranged to give time=distance/speed we get a total travelling time of 3.16 x 10^17 seconds, or 5.26 x 10^15 minutes, 8.77 x 10^13 hours, 3.65 x 10^12 days, or 10 billion years! So the distance has a value, the speed is a constant and the resulting time for the photon to travel ALSO has a value. NONE of these values is 0 so your assertion, therefore, that from travelling between the two points the photon has is in a spaceless, timeless condition is WRONG!!! Demonstrably so, run the maths yourself if you don’t believe me! You will NEVER get one of those value to zero!

Me:

Please send your new theory of light to some well-reputed scientific journal for peer review. If your theory gets accepted, then who can say that you will not get a Nobel Prize in future for your new theory of light?

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